Adult Adoptees Advocating for Change
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APs "living adoption"


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SoloZolo
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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2007, 04:46:59 pm »

...yet both my name and response remain the same. http://afc.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,363.msg4927.html#msg4927  I refuse to be a human band-aid.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 05:07:17 pm by SoloZolo » Report Spam   Logged

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IrenesEqual
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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2007, 05:09:58 pm »

Good SoloZolo!  We couldn't have people changing names and responses left and right now, could we?  That would just be too confusing!

And, thanks for your response.

I just can't help but to feel that ultimately AP's really do believe that what they are doing is the right thing to do.  Whether to meet their own personal goals of having children, or not, they still believe that they are giving a home to a child who needs one.  I know...that's a naive comment but I'm really just trying to learn here.  I had a positive experience as an adoptee so find I all this anger towards adoption new and want to try and understand where it comes from.  Did society understand the ills of adoption even as recently as 10 years ago?  Or is much of this research new?  If so, then I know at least my AP's would have never even known the ill-effects of adoption on me or my adopted brother and were certainly doing what they thought was in our best interests (AND their own...kind of like killing 2 birds with 1 stone?).

I agree that now that there is more research out there PAP's should read it and truly know what they are getting themselves and their PAC into, and then make their decision accordingly.  But I have a real hard time holding AP's from years past accountable for information and research they never had!

Please understand where I am coming from and just try to help me out with understanding more about this issue.  Like I said, I am here to learn!  I might not be as angry or hurt or in as much pain as some of you, but hopefully my thoughts and feelings on the subject will be equally considered and respected.
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joy
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2007, 05:10:22 pm »

OK...I'm gonna do it again...play devil's advocate 

I do not have any children yet and can really only speak from the perspective of adult adoptee, but if I TRY to put myself in the shoes of AP's I can imagine some of the answers you interjected on their behalf might change:

Quote
self concious   because I am adopted? CHECK  because I have adopted children? NO
--How about:  because I have adopted children?  CHECK ("Are people staring at me because my children don't look like me?")
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fear of abandonment    because I am adopted? CHECK  because I have adopted children? NO

--How about:  because I have adopted children?  CHECK ("Will my child "abandon" me in search of his/her birthparents?")
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people pleasing    because I am adopted? CHECK  because I have adopted children? NO
--How about:  because I have adopted children?  CHECK ("How can I please my child and make sure he/she loves me and doesn't decide to leave me?")
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immense grief     because I am adopted? CHECK  because I have adopted children? NO

--How about:  because I have adopted children?  CHECK (Grief of 1) The loss of bearing children and 2) Knowledge of the loss your child faces as he/she is relinquished by birthparents)
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a huge void in my life     because I am adopted? CHECK  because I have adopted children? NO
--I'll give you this one on the AP's perspective but coming from myself...because I am adopted?  NO (Only if I allow myself to feel that way)
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like a mistake    because I am adopted? CHECK  because I have adopted children? NO
--Ditto "a huge void in my life"...only if I allow myself to feel that way...NO ONE can EVER tell me that I was a mistake, no matter who they are!
Quote
like something important was ripped from me forever without my choice   because I am adopted? CHECK  because I have adopted children? NO

--How about:  because I have adopted children?  CHECK (the ability to conceive and bear children and/or in the case of continuous miscarriages...definitely...a child was ripped from her body FOREVER without her choice!)
Quote
like I am less of a person than other people who have not been in my shoes because I am adopted? CHECK  because I have adopted children? NO

--How about:  because I have adopted children?  CHECK ("Why can I not bear children?  What is wrong with me?  What do others do that I cannot?"  I believe the list of reasons to feel like less of a person must be endless for an adoptive parent.)
Quote
often misunderstood because I am adopted? CHECK  because I have adopted children? CHECK
--Amen!

So, again, playing devil's advocate...I don't know if this is how AP's really feel or not.  Are these feelings right, if they are accurate?  Probably not always!  Do they put a feeling of pressure and unhappiness on us AA's knowing that our AP's might have felt this way?  OF COURSE!!!  But can we deny that AP's might also experience some of these emotions?  I don't think so.  Whether right or wrong, they are human and feel things as deeply and painfully as we do!  Just because they make the choice to experience these emotions does not mean they are not entitled to them the same as you and I.  Just some food for thought  Shocked!

***Note:  I accidentally removed my post when I changed my screen name from shoolady to IrenesEqual.  Sorry for the confusion!  Aaagh!  I can't get the hang of this message board stuff  !





I think those are all plausible feelings, I don't think the intensity level is the same as adoptive parents are adults when they another big difference****make the decision******

to adopt.


With adoptees the insecurities and fears instilled by adoption hit us at our very core of our being, adoption affects all our developmental  phases,  I think it is more difficult to be an adoptive parent than a regular parent, I don't know, but that is my opinion, but I don't think adoptees and adoptive parents are equals in this, and I don't think because some people confuse us adoptees as a cure for fertility problems that we should feel responsible for them.
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IrenesEqual
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2007, 05:22:22 pm »

Joy, I agree with you!  And I was not writing my response as if the feelings were equal or should even be considered as such!  I just felt that simply writing "NO" in response to those feelings from the standpoint of the person who has adopted children was not truly seeing the whole picture. 

YES!  As you could see I didn't change the answer for any of the responses from the adopted child standpoint!  Because they are correct!  Quite valid and understandable (although I might not personally feel them all I do understand and accept that others might feel them).  BUT...whether we should have sympathy for AP's or not just because they made the choice, does not mean that we shouldn't acknowledge that they experience SIMILAR (not implying equal) emotions!  Not to start a whole new topic...but do we have little sympathy for the woman who's heart aches because she "CHOSE" to have an abortion and she now wishes she hadn't?  Do we look at her and say, "Well, that was your choice.  Get over it!  We don't want to hear how you feel!"?  I KNOW we don't, because we are caring individuals!  So, why not recognize that AP's might have similar emotions and need a little slack every once in awhile?  That was all I was trying to do with my response!

Thanks for listening!  And any other insight would be greatly appreciated (gee...I love a good debate) Roll Eyes!
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SoloZolo
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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2007, 06:34:31 pm »

Joy, I agree with you!  And I was not writing my response as if the feelings were equal or should even be considered as such!  I just felt that simply writing "NO" in response to those feelings from the standpoint of the person who has adopted children was not truly seeing the whole picture. 

YES!  As you could see I didn't change the answer for any of the responses from the adopted child standpoint!  Because they are correct!  Quite valid and understandable (although I might not personally feel them all I do understand and accept that others might feel them).  BUT...whether we should have sympathy for AP's or not just because they made the choice, does not mean that we shouldn't acknowledge that they experience SIMILAR (not implying equal) emotions!  Not to start a whole new topic...but do we have little sympathy for the woman who's heart aches because she "CHOSE" to have an abortion and she now wishes she hadn't?  Do we look at her and say, "Well, that was your choice.  Get over it!  We don't want to hear how you feel!"?  I KNOW we don't, because we are caring individuals!  So, why not recognize that AP's might have similar emotions and need a little slack every once in awhile?  That was all I was trying to do with my response!

Thanks for listening!  And any other insight would be greatly appreciated (gee...I love a good debate) Roll Eyes!

Irene, I am not sure if you are aware that the person who wrote the original yes/no thing is both an adoptee and has adopted children.  And you are probably not aware of a thread on a different forum (in their adoptee support section!) which asked adoptees to consider AP issues (which you have pointed out).  Since this entire forum is specifically for adoptee support (http://afc.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,62.0.html), I get a little hinky when asked to consider AP issues.  That is one of the reasons I am here and not at the other place.  Anyone is welcome to cut APs a little slack - I just don't think that place is here.  But hey that's just me.

I feel as if I spent most of my life being the band aid for my aparents' issues - at the expense of my self, and I feel that my healing lies in ridding myself of that mindset.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 06:54:51 pm by SoloZolo » Report Spam   Logged

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Marsha
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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2007, 07:55:46 pm »

Julie is right, I wasn't speculating on how an aparent might feel. I actually have a daughter from China and a son we're going to pick up this summer.
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IrenesEqual
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2007, 08:03:27 pm »

Point well-taken, Solo!

I was not aiming to take a stand for one side or the other...just simply playing "devil's advocate".  I am one who likes to think from all different sides of the aisle and like to encourage others to do so as well.  I joined this forum because I am very much interested in learning more about the issues facing AA's and I look to all of you to help me in that endeavor.  I apologize if I offended anyone...just want to spark a discussion. 
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joy
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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2007, 01:17:50 am »

Point well-taken, Solo!

I was not aiming to take a stand for one side or the other...just simply playing "devil's advocate".  I am one who likes to think from all different sides of the aisle and like to encourage others to do so as well.  I joined this forum because I am very much interested in learning more about the issues facing AA's and I look to all of you to help me in that endeavor.  I apologize if I offended anyone...just want to spark a discussion. 


I understand, I just get leery, and I will tell you exactly why, it is not because I don't care about adoptive parents and their issues, I do.

I care about people in a general way, I love my own adoptive parents in a very specific way, so much so that I am easily seduced into thinking that I am capable of healing them.

And when I get into thinking about them and their feelings, I tend to do so at the expense of my own.  And yes, Marsha is an adoptive mom, BUT not out of infertility, and I do think infertility, when you have grown up your whole life just wanting to be a wife and mommy has got to be incredibly painful.

I feel like I have infertility issues because I care so much about how my own mother feels.


But infertility is a separate issue from adoption.
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Stewie
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« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2007, 08:03:09 am »

I guess what bother's me is that this is seen as a "debate".  There shouldn't BE an adoptive parent "devil's advocate" position here. 

How does one see this as a debate? This is about the feelings of the adoptee. Period.

The feelings of the aparent should NOT NOT NEVER be in conflict with the FEEEEEEELLLINGS of the adoptee. They should be two separate things.

I HATE that it is so ingrained in so many of us that we have to debate whose feelings are more worthy. Or that if *I* feel a certain way, my aparent is going to feel a certain way and that I MUST take that into consideration.

I may take other peoples feelings into consideration, because I am a kind and compassionate person....but NOT because I am adopted, and my parents have adoptive parents issues. I am NOT here to heal them.

I was just born. I just showed up in this place.  I refuse to see this as a debate, I refuse to see the need for a "devil's advocate"

With all due respect, Irene, while your points about aparents feelings are valid, I just hate seeing them played off adoptees feelings. It shits me. I'm glad you brought up this topic, it feels good to discuss. (and certainly no offense taken - I hope you won't take offense at my response...)
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IrenesEqual
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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2007, 11:03:38 am »

Thanks Joy and Stewie for your responses.  And no offense taken!

I apologize for using the term "debate" as that was not really my intent (I've never been one comfortable with debating).  I believe I used the word "debate" when I should have used the word "discussion" since that was my goal.  I really didn't want to create hard feelings or get myself "smote", but merely wanted to get an idea of where AA's are coming from.  As I wrote before, I am new to all of this, and have just-born emotions and thoughts that might not be as deep-felt as some of you.  I am and was well-aware that this is an Adoptee Support forum, which again, is why I joined.  Not that I necessarily felt that I need support, but rather interested in the support other AA's need.  I appreciate the discussion that we have had related to this topic but in the future will definitely keep my thoughts regarding AP's to myself and/or left to share on a different message board.
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joy
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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2007, 11:12:41 am »

I understand, I was the same way for a long time, in fact I am still guilty of it to a certain degree, wanting to view things from my aparent's point of view.  Not being able to put myself first, in my own life.


Hey how crazy is that, that I was willing to take a supportive role in my own life story Azn



Well no more Angry



It is hard to be new when we all have been at this for a million years, for me discovering what adoption has meant to me has taken a long time, and involved many twists and turns, and I am actually still firguing it out.
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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2007, 12:51:15 pm »

I guess what bother's me is that this is seen as a "debate".  There shouldn't BE an adoptive parent "devil's advocate" position here. 

How does one see this as a debate? This is about the feelings of the adoptee. Period.

The feelings of the aparent should NOT NOT NEVER be in conflict with the FEEEEEEELLLINGS of the adoptee. They should be two separate things.

I HATE that it is so ingrained in so many of us that we have to debate whose feelings are more worthy. Or that if *I* feel a certain way, my aparent is going to feel a certain way and that I MUST take that into consideration.

I may take other peoples feelings into consideration, because I am a kind and compassionate person....but NOT because I am adopted, and my parents have adoptive parents issues. I am NOT here to heal them.

I was just born. I just showed up in this place.  I refuse to see this as a debate, I refuse to see the need for a "devil's advocate"

With all due respect, Irene, while your points about aparents feelings are valid, I just hate seeing them played off adoptees feelings. It shits me. I'm glad you brought up this topic, it feels good to discuss. (and certainly no offense taken - I hope you won't take offense at my response...)
 

This is IMPORTANT!!
IMH(and holy)O...  {Aside and apart from offense being taken}  Adoptees need a safe place to explore and OWN their feelings, to get to know their feelings, to hear them and learn from themselves.  They get lots of opportunities to exchange with their aparents, IRL and in their own heads echoing throughout their development.

again *IMO* coming to terms with identity as an adoptee seems like it might be kind of like adolescence X10 --  needing to find oneself without constant parental supervision.  God I didn't mean that to sound condescending.  But I know reunion with my daughter sent me spiralling back to my adolescence and reliving my own development, so I figure I can share.
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SoloZolo
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« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2007, 04:05:21 pm »


Hey how crazy is that, that I was willing to take a supportive role in my own life story Azn


I think that is partly why being adopted can be so crazy-making. Plus not being privy to one's own history, and accepting that!?!  I guess a lot of us have led "back-seat" lives.

Irene - I, too,  am inclined to spur others to think outside the box.  My friends IRL talk often about me and my "golden crowbar."    But in this place, I do have to think twice and remember the company and the purpose.  I've discovered that, although I have much to teach and to inspire, I also have much to learn.  You don't really have to apologize or explain.  We do understand.
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« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2007, 05:11:59 pm »

Marsha that's so good. That deserves a page all it's own on your website

I'm always scared to write "this is how adoptees feel" kind of stuff for my site because I just know people are going to go "you're not even a real adoptee" and completely dismiss whatever I'm saying. I don't want my status making the statement not be heard, you know?


Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!!!  Don't you know that even us "real" adoptees are completely dismissed when our opinions don't mesh with the happy, happy, joy, joy picture of adoption?  Our status doesn't help us get heard - you should go for it!  One more voice, well spoken at that, is always one more.  Ya' know?
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« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2007, 05:14:01 pm »

Thanks for the comments, guys.  I was reading at another (ahem) board, and some APs were asserting their expertise about the adoption experience because they are "living" it.  Frankly, it pissed me off (I am sure this surprises you - lol).  I didn't comment - just clicked back over here.

 Azn

You?  Pissed off about APs talking out their asses?    Would have liked to have been there is you had choosen to express your extreme disbelief at their utter gall.   
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